🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: December 12th, 2024, 8:21 am
ClownLoach wrote: December 11th, 2024, 5:28 pm
c95xrk wrote: December 11th, 2024, 4:06 pm

My expectation was that they would attempt to appeal under the incoming administration that will presumably be more favorable to industry consolidation. Once again, i'm hopeful this isn't just some attempt at 4D chess, but i'm cynical about it until it's dead in the water.
They already are appointing an existing FTC person who presumably is every bit as against this deal as the outgoing. Plus there would be no change in the judges, no change in all the personnel, and interestingly enough every early indicator was that business was backing the candidate who lost and was expected to fire Khan and replace with a more lenient person than the one who is getting the job. Although we need to avoid politics, there is every indication of broad bipartisan hatred of this now killed deal because of all the food inflation.

That and when these lawsuits were filed today by Albertsons, that was the dead in the water moment. There's no coming back from this.
You are counting on things to work out like they did in the past. Today and tomorrow will present new ways of how these things work out. Kroger-Albertsons as an example.

The new FTC person is not against mergers and acquisitions, unless it involves social media and perhaps tech.
I think both companies Kroger and Albertsons are in a different place now in Q4 2024 than they were when the merger got proposed.

What made sense 2 years ago may no longer make sense today. And I hate to say it like this, but while 2 years ago it made sense for Kroger to control the merged entity, I am not sure it made sense anymore...

I strongly prefer Kroger due to pricing and private label but I'm in a weird market where Safeway uses outrageous Northern California prices basically the highest price scale in their entire chain and Kroger is on a Utah price scale which is much lower. If the Safeway operation in my market didn't throw prices out like 8.99 for 1lb Challenge Butter or 9.99lb for Pork Chops or 21.99lb for NY Steak or 1.99 for single candy bars, my store preference may be different.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: December 12th, 2024, 8:21 am
ClownLoach wrote: December 11th, 2024, 5:28 pm
c95xrk wrote: December 11th, 2024, 4:06 pm

My expectation was that they would attempt to appeal under the incoming administration that will presumably be more favorable to industry consolidation. Once again, i'm hopeful this isn't just some attempt at 4D chess, but i'm cynical about it until it's dead in the water.
They already are appointing an existing FTC person who presumably is every bit as against this deal as the outgoing. Plus there would be no change in the judges, no change in all the personnel, and interestingly enough every early indicator was that business was backing the candidate who lost and was expected to fire Khan and replace with a more lenient person than the one who is getting the job. Although we need to avoid politics, there is every indication of broad bipartisan hatred of this now killed deal because of all the food inflation.

That and when these lawsuits were filed today by Albertsons, that was the dead in the water moment. There's no coming back from this.
You are counting on things to work out like they did in the past. Today and tomorrow will present new ways of how these things work out. Kroger-Albertsons as an example.

The new FTC person is not against mergers and acquisitions, unless it involves social media and perhaps tech.
The way it has been presented is his focus on overhaul of FTC policy will be to focus on social media and tech free speech issues. If they wanted to change the policy against mergers and acquisitions they would have presented it that way.

Flip side, it was expected that any new FTC head would be more pro business, regardless of the election outcome. There were multiple articles shared about this.

This merger has been proven in so many ways now to be over the top. Look at the treasure trove of data coming out of the cases now, all top secret confidential information. There is legitimate damage to both companies because their competitors now know a lot of their proprietary trade secrets.

They're also all pissed off at each other now, and I would assume this is irreconcilable.

The "I have a Death Wish" party, if one existed, would support this deal. Nobody else. It is political kryptonite. Even if they would be more supportive in general of M&A that does not mean this thing returns from the dead. Albertsons is in a much stronger position than they were when this started. And don't forget the entire root cause of the merger has been removed, they needed the merger to cash out Cerberus stake which was too large to go on the open market without tanking the stock.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: December 12th, 2024, 8:16 am
ClownLoach wrote: December 11th, 2024, 3:47 pm
veteran+ wrote: December 11th, 2024, 3:05 pm No sympathy for Kroger or C&S. NONE!

I do not trust the chief at Albertsons BUT I think Albertsons is due that breakup fee and MORE.

IMO, Kroger is one piece of work and deserves some pain.

C&S? They should go down the drain or just stop making believe they are a retailer.
Albertsons should get their breakup fee.
C&S went from bad actor to potentially a more committed buyer than Kroger. The later reports indicated clearly that ONLY Kroger people were going to be kept at corporate to run the combined company. That means everyone at Albertsons corporate was going to be out of a job, and I doubt they were going to get a good severance from Kroger. C&S had committed to saving at least a thousand of these jobs. I don't know why they were so stupid as to wait till the last minute to announce they did this, sure it may have been running fast to save the deal but at least they were helping to keep people employed. They need to be reimbursed for all costs from the day the relationship went sour and they became a material witness for the Feds.
IMO, Albertsons is the lesser evil of the three.
How would Albertsons be the lesser evil? They were being manipulated and controlled by two of the worst entities on the planet, Apollo and Cerberus? That is why we had this entire situation.

Reading more of this information coming out of the trials, there is some more validation of my theory that C&S had shifted sides. Apparently they had brought in very high dollar consulting firms. I have worked in companies that do this and those firms charge millions of dollars just to fly in a couple of MBA types and number crunchers. You only do this when you're trying to figure out how to actually make a run at it. I would not be surprised if they spent $100M or more just in the consulting work to establish a real company instead of just using the three bozos in the corner that liquidated assets and/or ran previous acquisitions into the ground. Plus all the legal paperwork, the fees the state charges for those liquor license transactions that now have to all be canceled, and so on. They've probably lost hundreds of millions on this deal where realistically they were the only one who was going to be hiring people or saving people's jobs. You know that tens of thousands of people were going to lose their jobs in the merger otherwise. Kroger's lame promises of no "frontline" job losses is only because they are chronically understaffed at the store and warehouse levels because of how poorly they treat their workers so they're always hiring. They could just stop replacing people for a while and the net result would be further untold thousands of layoffs.

Albertsons is still owed their breakup fee. C&S definitely has a lawsuit for all of the money they spent to try to actually do what the government expected, to try to form a legitimate competitor. Kroger was really the opportunistic one who saw a chance to strip this company of its best assets, and then apply their profit maximizing "price probes" and other such nefarious gouging techniques to raise prices as high as the market would bear while putting tens of thousands of people out of work.
Last edited by ClownLoach on December 12th, 2024, 9:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by pseudo3d »

storewanderer wrote: December 12th, 2024, 9:14 am
veteran+ wrote: December 12th, 2024, 8:21 am
ClownLoach wrote: December 11th, 2024, 5:28 pm

They already are appointing an existing FTC person who presumably is every bit as against this deal as the outgoing. Plus there would be no change in the judges, no change in all the personnel, and interestingly enough every early indicator was that business was backing the candidate who lost and was expected to fire Khan and replace with a more lenient person than the one who is getting the job. Although we need to avoid politics, there is every indication of broad bipartisan hatred of this now killed deal because of all the food inflation.

That and when these lawsuits were filed today by Albertsons, that was the dead in the water moment. There's no coming back from this.
You are counting on things to work out like they did in the past. Today and tomorrow will present new ways of how these things work out. Kroger-Albertsons as an example.

The new FTC person is not against mergers and acquisitions, unless it involves social media and perhaps tech.
I think both companies Kroger and Albertsons are in a different place now in Q4 2024 than they were when the merger got proposed.

What made sense 2 years ago may no longer make sense today. And I hate to say it like this, but while 2 years ago it made sense for Kroger to control the merged entity, I am not sure it made sense anymore...

I strongly prefer Kroger due to pricing and private label but I'm in a weird market where Safeway uses outrageous Northern California prices basically the highest price scale in their entire chain and Kroger is on a Utah price scale which is much lower. If the Safeway operation in my market didn't throw prices out like 8.99 for 1lb Challenge Butter or 9.99lb for Pork Chops or 21.99lb for NY Steak or 1.99 for single candy bars, my store preference may be different.
It would be funny if Albertsons turned around and purchased Kroger, but only the East Coast operations. Get the name and the divisions, sell off a few Harris Teeter stores in DC, pick off a few stores in Houston/Dallas, and Kroger (new name pending) keeps JayC and Mariano's. It wouldn't step on the West Coast states' toes and actually help Albertsons (remember, it's not like Kroger got a lot of new territory).
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by jamcool »

Kroger doesn’t have anything on the East Coast (primarily the Southeast) that it would sell, other than a few stores in the DC/Richmond area.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by wnetmacman »

pseudo3d wrote: December 12th, 2024, 9:38 am It would be funny if Albertsons turned around and purchased Kroger, but only the East Coast operations. Get the name and the divisions, sell off a few Harris Teeter stores in DC, pick off a few stores in Houston/Dallas, and Kroger (new name pending) keeps JayC and Mariano's. It wouldn't step on the West Coast states' toes and actually help Albertsons (remember, it's not like Kroger got a lot of new territory).
I don't believe Albertsons is in a position to purchase anybody any more unless Kroger gives them the breakup fee.

Realistically, why would Kroger sell off its home base? While I know the west coast for them is a highly lucrative area, I cannot see Kroger keeping only it to run on. The Kroger home base is what makes them Kroger. For the biggest part of their history, that has been all of the company.

Additionally, I think this merger had two goals:

1. West Coast domination
2. Chicago

As a secondary, Texas domination to fight HEB - they're scared, because they already lost San Antonio. Houston is okay but crowded. Dallas was theirs to own against a weak Albertsons and Tom Thumb, and HEB is knocking the door down to get in.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by pseudo3d »

wnetmacman wrote: December 12th, 2024, 10:37 am
pseudo3d wrote: December 12th, 2024, 9:38 am It would be funny if Albertsons turned around and purchased Kroger, but only the East Coast operations. Get the name and the divisions, sell off a few Harris Teeter stores in DC, pick off a few stores in Houston/Dallas, and Kroger (new name pending) keeps JayC and Mariano's. It wouldn't step on the West Coast states' toes and actually help Albertsons (remember, it's not like Kroger got a lot of new territory).
I don't believe Albertsons is in a position to purchase anybody any more unless Kroger gives them the breakup fee.

Realistically, why would Kroger sell off its home base? While I know the west coast for them is a highly lucrative area, I cannot see Kroger keeping only it to run on. The Kroger home base is what makes them Kroger. For the biggest part of their history, that has been all of the company.

Additionally, I think this merger had two goals:

1. West Coast domination
2. Chicago

As a secondary, Texas domination to fight HEB - they're scared, because they already lost San Antonio. Houston is okay but crowded. Dallas was theirs to own against a weak Albertsons and Tom Thumb, and HEB is knocking the door down to get in.
"Would be funny", didn't say it could actually happen (With their ego, Kroger's economic position would have to be dire). Besides, both #1 and #2 are stuff that Kroger can do easily without spending $25B. $25B could fix QFC, Mariano's, and other problem markets. Texas is a wash. There's no Albertsons stores in San Antonio—hasn't for over twenty years. Houston Kroger vastly outnumbers Randalls (with the exception of Midtown I believe every remaining Randalls has a nearby Kroger) and does better volume than them (ironically the two planned divested stores were in the areas where H-E-B closed stores but Randalls/Kroger didn't), and they've lost the plot as H-E-B rolled into the more urban areas where Kroger was dominant. Dallas-Fort Worth has some inner neighborhoods with Tom Thumb but they (Kroger) still do substantially better volume per store on average. The only major remaining market is Austin, where Randalls has barely expanded in the last ten years (they at least built new stores, but still a net loss) and isn't likely to move the needle with H-E-B especially as they continue to expand and Randalls is largely stuck with small stores that date back to the 1970s or even earlier. El Paso I guess would work (and that Horizon City store looks nice)...but also a bunch of tiny United stores in small markets (not worth a lot, and we all saw how Kroger has been treating the Central Division).
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by ClownLoach »

pseudo3d wrote: December 12th, 2024, 11:18 am
wnetmacman wrote: December 12th, 2024, 10:37 am
pseudo3d wrote: December 12th, 2024, 9:38 am It would be funny if Albertsons turned around and purchased Kroger, but only the East Coast operations. Get the name and the divisions, sell off a few Harris Teeter stores in DC, pick off a few stores in Houston/Dallas, and Kroger (new name pending) keeps JayC and Mariano's. It wouldn't step on the West Coast states' toes and actually help Albertsons (remember, it's not like Kroger got a lot of new territory).
I don't believe Albertsons is in a position to purchase anybody any more unless Kroger gives them the breakup fee.

Realistically, why would Kroger sell off its home base? While I know the west coast for them is a highly lucrative area, I cannot see Kroger keeping only it to run on. The Kroger home base is what makes them Kroger. For the biggest part of their history, that has been all of the company.

Additionally, I think this merger had two goals:

1. West Coast domination
2. Chicago

As a secondary, Texas domination to fight HEB - they're scared, because they already lost San Antonio. Houston is okay but crowded. Dallas was theirs to own against a weak Albertsons and Tom Thumb, and HEB is knocking the door down to get in.
"Would be funny", didn't say it could actually happen (With their ego, Kroger's economic position would have to be dire). Besides, both #1 and #2 are stuff that Kroger can do easily without spending $25B. $25B could fix QFC, Mariano's, and other problem markets. Texas is a wash. There's no Albertsons stores in San Antonio—hasn't for over twenty years. Houston Kroger vastly outnumbers Randalls (with the exception of Midtown I believe every remaining Randalls has a nearby Kroger) and does better volume than them (ironically the two planned divested stores were in the areas where H-E-B closed stores but Randalls/Kroger didn't), and they've lost the plot as H-E-B rolled into the more urban areas where Kroger was dominant. Dallas-Fort Worth has some inner neighborhoods with Tom Thumb but they (Kroger) still do substantially better volume per store on average. The only major remaining market is Austin, where Randalls has barely expanded in the last ten years (they at least built new stores, but still a net loss) and isn't likely to move the needle with H-E-B especially as they continue to expand and Randalls is largely stuck with small stores that date back to the 1970s or even earlier. El Paso I guess would work (and that Horizon City store looks nice)...but also a bunch of tiny United stores in small markets (not worth a lot, and we all saw how Kroger has been treating the Central Division).
To me, all of the above are reasons why this was first and foremost a Real Estate transaction for Kroger. We are learning about a surprisingly high number of money losing Fred Meyer stores for example, exactly what I predicted about the banner, that are guaranteed to only be open for future real estate sale to developers. The more you control in the market, the more opportunities you will come across where your site can be acquired for hundreds of millions and you won't lose share since you own other nearby sites. That is why they were willing to spend $25B - they were getting a lot more than just buying higher rankings in a couple of key markets. They were likely going to be able to repay themselves for most of the purchase price over the next decade or so as they accelerated development deals. When you're afraid to sell your one Fred Meyer in the area because you only own a small QFC to absorb the business, but you now also own three Safeway sites surrounding the big barn it's an easy sale. Those kinds of opportunities are all over the West Coast.

For Albertsons, this was entirely operation by puppet strings by Cerberus and Apollo. Now that Cerberus no longer wants to sell there will be no more deals. Although Albertsons is in outstanding shape, they could borrow ten billion plus easily and not even be considered heavily indebted. They don't need the measly $600M breakup fee to be a buyer in the market. They're on track to be debt free in the next year or so which means an $80B business to borrow against.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by brendenmoney »

ClownLoach wrote: December 12th, 2024, 12:54 pm
pseudo3d wrote: December 12th, 2024, 11:18 am
wnetmacman wrote: December 12th, 2024, 10:37 am

I don't believe Albertsons is in a position to purchase anybody any more unless Kroger gives them the breakup fee.

Realistically, why would Kroger sell off its home base? While I know the west coast for them is a highly lucrative area, I cannot see Kroger keeping only it to run on. The Kroger home base is what makes them Kroger. For the biggest part of their history, that has been all of the company.

Additionally, I think this merger had two goals:

1. West Coast domination
2. Chicago

As a secondary, Texas domination to fight HEB - they're scared, because they already lost San Antonio. Houston is okay but crowded. Dallas was theirs to own against a weak Albertsons and Tom Thumb, and HEB is knocking the door down to get in.
"Would be funny", didn't say it could actually happen (With their ego, Kroger's economic position would have to be dire). Besides, both #1 and #2 are stuff that Kroger can do easily without spending $25B. $25B could fix QFC, Mariano's, and other problem markets. Texas is a wash. There's no Albertsons stores in San Antonio—hasn't for over twenty years. Houston Kroger vastly outnumbers Randalls (with the exception of Midtown I believe every remaining Randalls has a nearby Kroger) and does better volume than them (ironically the two planned divested stores were in the areas where H-E-B closed stores but Randalls/Kroger didn't), and they've lost the plot as H-E-B rolled into the more urban areas where Kroger was dominant. Dallas-Fort Worth has some inner neighborhoods with Tom Thumb but they (Kroger) still do substantially better volume per store on average. The only major remaining market is Austin, where Randalls has barely expanded in the last ten years (they at least built new stores, but still a net loss) and isn't likely to move the needle with H-E-B especially as they continue to expand and Randalls is largely stuck with small stores that date back to the 1970s or even earlier. El Paso I guess would work (and that Horizon City store looks nice)...but also a bunch of tiny United stores in small markets (not worth a lot, and we all saw how Kroger has been treating the Central Division).
To me, all of the above are reasons why this was first and foremost a Real Estate transaction for Kroger. We are learning about a surprisingly high number of money losing Fred Meyer stores for example, exactly what I predicted about the banner, that are guaranteed to only be open for future real estate sale to developers. The more you control in the market, the more opportunities you will come across where your site can be acquired for hundreds of millions and you won't lose share since you own other nearby sites. That is why they were willing to spend $25B - they were getting a lot more than just buying higher rankings in a couple of key markets. They were likely going to be able to repay themselves for most of the purchase price over the next decade or so as they accelerated development deals. When you're afraid to sell your one Fred Meyer in the area because you only own a small QFC to absorb the business, but you now also own three Safeway sites surrounding the big barn it's an easy sale. Those kinds of opportunities are all over the West Coast.

For Albertsons, this was entirely operation by puppet strings by Cerberus and Apollo. Now that Cerberus no longer wants to sell there will be no more deals. Although Albertsons is in outstanding shape, they could borrow ten billion plus easily and not even be considered heavily indebted. They don't need the measly $600M breakup fee to be a buyer in the market. They're on track to be debt free in the next year or so which means an $80B business to borrow against.
To build off this, I think there's a good chance Albertsons will be in a better spot than Kroger in a couple years. Quite honestly, I think Kroger needed Albertsons more than Albertsons needs them. Kroger will be fine without them, but I think Kroger could have benefitted from some of Albertsons leadership, but ironically Kroger kissed that idea goodbye and planned on casting off most of Albertsons c-suite to C&S, or other companies such as Gelsons.

Yes, Albertsons truly doesn't need the $600M, however I do think they are owed the fee. Yes, Albertsons did raise the flag, but quite honestly there were actions Kroger didn't take and now they are paying the price for it. At the very least if Albertsons does get it's breakup fee, they will have some cash flow which hopefully would be invested back into it's stores. I could see Albertsons exploring acquisitions in a couple years, but the best move would be to continue investing in what they have for now.

Kroger had obvious goals, such as better control of NorCal and Chicago, but they would also have had other benefits, such as potentially building the Ralphs division store count back up, which makes up for the numerous closures over the past decade. They were gonna dump QFC but in turn get a good majority of Safeway stores in the area which has a better reputation in the Seattle Metro. Yeah, certainly more Safeways would have had to be divested for it to go through, but at least Kroger would have control of the more popular name. Even if Kroger divested every current Ralphs in SoCal in favor of all the Albertsons Cos stores, their store count in the region would still increase, and they would be able to re-enter some markets that they have either left entirely or heavily retreated from. I truly think Kroger could have tried to make this work with some drastic actions, but their ego on keeping as many stores as possible simply prevents them from considering drastic actions that would have been needed.

Just throwing it out there. Regardless I am thankful that this merger is dead. I truly think heavy investment in remodels and repairs in Albertsons and Kroger stores would end permanently if this merger somehow made it through.
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Re: 🛒 Kroger-Albertsons Merger: National Impact

Post by CalItalian »

veteran+ wrote: December 12th, 2024, 8:21 am
ClownLoach wrote: December 11th, 2024, 5:28 pm
c95xrk wrote: December 11th, 2024, 4:06 pm

My expectation was that they would attempt to appeal under the incoming administration that will presumably be more favorable to industry consolidation. Once again, i'm hopeful this isn't just some attempt at 4D chess, but i'm cynical about it until it's dead in the water.
They already are appointing an existing FTC person who presumably is every bit as against this deal as the outgoing. Plus there would be no change in the judges, no change in all the personnel, and interestingly enough every early indicator was that business was backing the candidate who lost and was expected to fire Khan and replace with a more lenient person than the one who is getting the job. Although we need to avoid politics, there is every indication of broad bipartisan hatred of this now killed deal because of all the food inflation.

That and when these lawsuits were filed today by Albertsons, that was the dead in the water moment. There's no coming back from this.
You are counting on things to work out like they did in the past. Today and tomorrow will present new ways of how these things work out. Kroger-Albertsons as an example.

The new FTC person is not against mergers and acquisitions, unless it involves social media and perhaps tech.
Andrew Ferguson as FTC Chair is tough on tech free speech but not at all pro merger. Remember, he was appointed by Biden originally. So was Melissa Holyoak. Mark Meador, who will replace Lina Kahn, is much like her. His mentor being Mike Lee. I do not anticipate much change in policy. Just a slightly lighter touch on business policies. M&A cheerleaders overthought what they would get with an R administration under Trump.
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