Burlington closing Carson City, NV location

[storewanderer]

Hobby Lobby will do great in this location.

It will probably be the end for the Jo Ann in Carson though. And I'm not sure if the Michaels will survive either in their current location. Maybe they could try to relocate.

I've never seen a Michaels close after a a Hobby Lobby opens. They are next door to each other all over SoCal and have been for a while now.

Both chains have diverged quite a bit, Hobby Lobby has a fraction of the arts and crafts merchandise it did 15 years ago when they started the western expansion. Michaels has far less home decor than they used to, no lamps anymore or small furniture, and they have really downsized seasonal goods over the years. Hobby Lobby is more of a HomeGoods minus the towels, kitchen tools, and food than a craft store.

Joann on the other hand I have seen close or downsize due to Hobby Lobby. They're definitely more negatively affected. They carry all of the same items but less of each at higher prices.

Take a look at the Carson Jo-Ann. It is probably one of the worst stores in that chain. Old House of Fabrics. I have no idea how it stays open. I think the corporation forgot to tell it to close years ago.

The issue with Michaels in Carson City is the location. This is a small market to begin with. Customers from the Carson City side will be driving out of their way past the Hobby Lobby to get to it, it is inconvenient. No impact on customers from the Minden/Gardnerville side but I am not sure how many of those customers go to Michaels, I suspect not very many. We will see how it plays out. That is part of why I proposed Michaels should consider relocating closer "in" to Carson City.

There was previously a Ben Franklin franchisee in Carson City who relocated their store there (was in a visible location in the shopping center that now has 99 Only/Grocery Outlet; that used to be a Scolaris anchor) and debranded it to "Craft Market." They closed around 2014. Their new building which wasn't visible from the road was at 2750 South Carson Street in a very odd location. They eventually closed due to owner retirement, it probably made a little bit of money. They kept a Reno location branded Ben Franklin until closing it in 2012.

[bryceleinan]

Hobby Lobby will do great in this location.

It will probably be the end for the Jo Ann in Carson though. And I'm not sure if the Michaels will survive either in their current location. Maybe they could try to relocate.

I've never seen a Michaels close after a a Hobby Lobby opens. They are next door to each other all over SoCal and have been for a while now.

Both chains have diverged quite a bit, Hobby Lobby has a fraction of the arts and crafts merchandise it did 15 years ago when they started the western expansion. Michaels has far less home decor than they used to, no lamps anymore or small furniture, and they have really downsized seasonal goods over the years. Hobby Lobby is more of a HomeGoods minus the towels, kitchen tools, and food than a craft store.

Joann on the other hand I have seen close or downsize due to Hobby Lobby. They're definitely more negatively affected. They carry all of the same items but less of each at higher prices.

Take a look at the Carson Jo-Ann. It is probably one of the worst stores in that chain. Old House of Fabrics. I have no idea how it stays open. I think the corporation forgot to tell it to close years ago.

The issue with Michaels in Carson City is the location. This is a small market to begin with. Customers from the Carson City side will be driving out of their way past the Hobby Lobby to get to it, it is inconvenient. No impact on customers from the Minden/Gardnerville side but I am not sure how many of those customers go to Michaels, I suspect not very many. We will see how it plays out. That is part of why I proposed Michaels should consider relocating closer "in" to Carson City.

There was previously a Ben Franklin franchisee in Carson City who relocated their store there (was in a visible location in the shopping center that now has 99 Only/Grocery Outlet; that used to be a Scolaris anchor) and debranded it to "Craft Market." They closed around 2014. Their new building which wasn't visible from the road was at 2750 South Carson Street in a very odd location. They eventually closed due to owner retirement, it probably made a little bit of money. They kept a Reno location branded Ben Franklin until closing it in 2012.

That JoAnn is in a former Sprouse-Reitz location, and I agree, it is probably going to wind up closing with Hobby Lobby coming to town. Ben Franklin was a great store when it was here - I remember going there a lot while I was a student at Corbett and Mark Twain Elementary in the late 80s/early 90s. We had a neighbor that worked at the Coast-to-Coast next door.

Outside of Best Buy and In-N-Out, I rarely go to the shopping center where Michael’s is - it’s too far out. I also tend to go to the north Walmart more for the same reason, even Costco is a bit of a stretch.

[ClownLoach]

I've never seen a Michaels close after a a Hobby Lobby opens. They are next door to each other all over SoCal and have been for a while now.

Both chains have diverged quite a bit, Hobby Lobby has a fraction of the arts and crafts merchandise it did 15 years ago when they started the western expansion. Michaels has far less home decor than they used to, no lamps anymore or small furniture, and they have really downsized seasonal goods over the years. Hobby Lobby is more of a HomeGoods minus the towels, kitchen tools, and food than a craft store.

Joann on the other hand I have seen close or downsize due to Hobby Lobby. They're definitely more negatively affected. They carry all of the same items but less of each at higher prices.

Take a look at the Carson Jo-Ann. It is probably one of the worst stores in that chain. Old House of Fabrics. I have no idea how it stays open. I think the corporation forgot to tell it to close years ago.

The issue with Michaels in Carson City is the location. This is a small market to begin with. Customers from the Carson City side will be driving out of their way past the Hobby Lobby to get to it, it is inconvenient. No impact on customers from the Minden/Gardnerville side but I am not sure how many of those customers go to Michaels, I suspect not very many. We will see how it plays out. That is part of why I proposed Michaels should consider relocating closer "in" to Carson City.

There was previously a Ben Franklin franchisee in Carson City who relocated their store there (was in a visible location in the shopping center that now has 99 Only/Grocery Outlet; that used to be a Scolaris anchor) and debranded it to "Craft Market." They closed around 2014. Their new building which wasn't visible from the road was at 2750 South Carson Street in a very odd location. They eventually closed due to owner retirement, it probably made a little bit of money. They kept a Reno location branded Ben Franklin until closing it in 2012.

That JoAnn is in a former Sprouse-Reitz location, and I agree, it is probably going to wind up closing with Hobby Lobby coming to town. Ben Franklin was a great store when it was here - I remember going there a lot while I was a student at Corbett and Mark Twain Elementary in the late 80s/early 90s. We had a neighbor that worked at the Coast-to-Coast next door.

Outside of Best Buy and In-N-Out, I rarely go to the shopping center where Michael’s is - it’s too far out. I also tend to go to the north Walmart more for the same reason, even Costco is a bit of a stretch.

Thing is these craft stores all do very little business. Basket size is probably $20 or less. Doing the math on Michaels their entire chain does $5.2B a year and they have 1290 stores. That means an average Michaels brings in only $4 million a year. Every Costco in the west does the same amount of business in any given 5 day period as a Michaels does in a year.

Joann does $2.4B a year and they have 815 stores with a real mix. Many are larger buildings than any Michaels, some are larger than Hobby Lobby for reasons I cannot comprehend. That puts an average Joann at just less than $3M a year in revenue. Once again a Friday, Saturday and Sunday at any Costco is equal to one year of that Joann sales.

Based on what you are all saying I would assume these stores do half of chain average.

So not only would it cost many times annual revenue to relocate either store, which would never be profitable, ironically it would also likely cost more than a year or two of annual revenue to close such a store unless it's at end of lease since typical early severance is a few million dollars... And then you have to take the loss on the inventory liquidating it or moving it at great cost.

This is why you don't see much remodeling, updates, or relocations that happen with these craft stores. The new Joann prototype is beautifully done but I would imagine the build out is $7M to $10M and requires an average Bed Bath And Beyond size box around 40K Sq ft. Michaels new stores are really bare bones in small boxes like former Rite Aid stores, plain concrete floors and block walls with cheap looking fixtures and self checkout only so maybe they're only spending a couple of million. Either way the costs to move for such a small market are too high, and ironically the costs to close are probably too high for both chains. Considering Joann is in bankruptcy and chose not to close this store for free by rejecting the lease, they probably either own it or have a dirt cheap lease since it's a dirty old store. In both cases they can probably break even and it sounds like neither location would be in demand by another retailer so both chains could probably work their landlords hard on rent decreases at renewal time with Hobby Lobby now in town. The landlords would probably be better off keeping them for less rent versus having to spend money to bring either building up to modern standards to entice a new tenant to take over.

[storewanderer]

Take a look at the Carson Jo-Ann. It is probably one of the worst stores in that chain. Old House of Fabrics. I have no idea how it stays open. I think the corporation forgot to tell it to close years ago.

The issue with Michaels in Carson City is the location. This is a small market to begin with. Customers from the Carson City side will be driving out of their way past the Hobby Lobby to get to it, it is inconvenient. No impact on customers from the Minden/Gardnerville side but I am not sure how many of those customers go to Michaels, I suspect not very many. We will see how it plays out. That is part of why I proposed Michaels should consider relocating closer "in" to Carson City.

There was previously a Ben Franklin franchisee in Carson City who relocated their store there (was in a visible location in the shopping center that now has 99 Only/Grocery Outlet; that used to be a Scolaris anchor) and debranded it to "Craft Market." They closed around 2014. Their new building which wasn't visible from the road was at 2750 South Carson Street in a very odd location. They eventually closed due to owner retirement, it probably made a little bit of money. They kept a Reno location branded Ben Franklin until closing it in 2012.

That JoAnn is in a former Sprouse-Reitz location, and I agree, it is probably going to wind up closing with Hobby Lobby coming to town. Ben Franklin was a great store when it was here - I remember going there a lot while I was a student at Corbett and Mark Twain Elementary in the late 80s/early 90s. We had a neighbor that worked at the Coast-to-Coast next door.

Outside of Best Buy and In-N-Out, I rarely go to the shopping center where Michael’s is - it’s too far out. I also tend to go to the north Walmart more for the same reason, even Costco is a bit of a stretch.

Thing is these craft stores all do very little business. Basket size is probably $20 or less. Doing the math on Michaels their entire chain does $5.2B a year and they have 1290 stores. That means an average Michaels brings in only $4 million a year. Every Costco in the west does the same amount of business in any given 5 day period as a Michaels does in a year.

Joann does $2.4B a year and they have 815 stores with a real mix. Many are larger buildings than any Michaels, some are larger than Hobby Lobby for reasons I cannot comprehend. That puts an average Joann at just less than $3M a year in revenue. Once again a Friday, Saturday and Sunday at any Costco is equal to one year of that Joann sales.

Based on what you are all saying I would assume these stores do half of chain average.

So not only would it cost many times annual revenue to relocate either store, which would never be profitable, ironically it would also likely cost more than a year or two of annual revenue to close such a store unless it's at end of lease since typical early severance is a few million dollars... And then you have to take the loss on the inventory liquidating it or moving it at great cost.

This is why you don't see much remodeling, updates, or relocations that happen with these craft stores. The new Joann prototype is beautifully done but I would imagine the build out is $7M to $10M and requires an average Bed Bath And Beyond size box around 40K Sq ft. Michaels new stores are really bare bones in small boxes like former Rite Aid stores, plain concrete floors and block walls with cheap looking fixtures and self checkout only so maybe they're only spending a couple of million. Either way the costs to move for such a small market are too high, and ironically the costs to close are probably too high for both chains. Considering Joann is in bankruptcy and chose not to close this store for free by rejecting the lease, they probably either own it or have a dirt cheap lease since it's a dirty old store. In both cases they can probably break even and it sounds like neither location would be in demand by another retailer so both chains could probably work their landlords hard on rent decreases at renewal time with Hobby Lobby now in town. The landlords would probably be better off keeping them for less rent versus having to spend money to bring either building up to modern standards to entice a new tenant to take over.

I'm not sure the JoAnn in question is more than 12k square feet. I'd be surprised if it does $500k a year in sales.

You're right that neither location is going to be one that another retailer will go after... The JoAnn is in the back of a mall and you can't see it from the main street. You can see it from the DMV, but I'm not sure if that is a good thing or only makes matters worse.

[ClownLoach]

That JoAnn is in a former Sprouse-Reitz location, and I agree, it is probably going to wind up closing with Hobby Lobby coming to town. Ben Franklin was a great store when it was here - I remember going there a lot while I was a student at Corbett and Mark Twain Elementary in the late 80s/early 90s. We had a neighbor that worked at the Coast-to-Coast next door.

Outside of Best Buy and In-N-Out, I rarely go to the shopping center where Michael’s is - it’s too far out. I also tend to go to the north Walmart more for the same reason, even Costco is a bit of a stretch.

Thing is these craft stores all do very little business. Basket size is probably $20 or less. Doing the math on Michaels their entire chain does $5.2B a year and they have 1290 stores. That means an average Michaels brings in only $4 million a year. Every Costco in the west does the same amount of business in any given 5 day period as a Michaels does in a year.

Joann does $2.4B a year and they have 815 stores with a real mix. Many are larger buildings than any Michaels, some are larger than Hobby Lobby for reasons I cannot comprehend. That puts an average Joann at just less than $3M a year in revenue. Once again a Friday, Saturday and Sunday at any Costco is equal to one year of that Joann sales.

Based on what you are all saying I would assume these stores do half of chain average.

So not only would it cost many times annual revenue to relocate either store, which would never be profitable, ironically it would also likely cost more than a year or two of annual revenue to close such a store unless it's at end of lease since typical early severance is a few million dollars... And then you have to take the loss on the inventory liquidating it or moving it at great cost.

This is why you don't see much remodeling, updates, or relocations that happen with these craft stores. The new Joann prototype is beautifully done but I would imagine the build out is $7M to $10M and requires an average Bed Bath And Beyond size box around 40K Sq ft. Michaels new stores are really bare bones in small boxes like former Rite Aid stores, plain concrete floors and block walls with cheap looking fixtures and self checkout only so maybe they're only spending a couple of million. Either way the costs to move for such a small market are too high, and ironically the costs to close are probably too high for both chains. Considering Joann is in bankruptcy and chose not to close this store for free by rejecting the lease, they probably either own it or have a dirt cheap lease since it's a dirty old store. In both cases they can probably break even and it sounds like neither location would be in demand by another retailer so both chains could probably work their landlords hard on rent decreases at renewal time with Hobby Lobby now in town. The landlords would probably be better off keeping them for less rent versus having to spend money to bring either building up to modern standards to entice a new tenant to take over.

I'm not sure the JoAnn in question is more than 12k square feet. I'd be surprised if it does $500k a year in sales.

You're right that neither location is going to be one that another retailer will go after... The JoAnn is in the back of a mall and you can't see it from the main street. You can see it from the DMV, but I'm not sure if that is a good thing or only makes matters worse.

From a brand perspective Joann should close since it is a blight on their name and does no real volume. Yet they've kept many of the old House of Fabrics and Cloth World dreadful stores open probably because of the financials I explained above. They really needed to find a savior who would be happy to invest in addressing their needs and consolidating stores but making the new ones better so they could become a regional draw. But that takes a lot of money. Joann does seem to be doing this in SoCal when they can, they closed around 5 stores in Orange, Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda and Fullerton several years ago and replaced with two modern stores in Orange and Fullerton/Brea area.

[storewanderer]

From a brand perspective Joann should close since it is a blight on their name and does no real volume. Yet they've kept many of the old House of Fabrics and Cloth World dreadful stores open probably because of the financials I explained above. They really needed to find a savior who would be happy to invest in addressing their needs and consolidating stores but making the new ones better so they could become a regional draw. But that takes a lot of money. Joann does seem to be doing this in SoCal when they can, they closed around 5 stores in Orange, Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda and Fullerton several years ago and replaced with two modern stores in Orange and Fullerton/Brea area.

House of Fabrics was an odd operation. I don't think they were scanning yet when they got bought out by Jo Ann. Jo Ann was already trying to expand out west when they bought House of Fabrics but I'm not sure how far they had gotten. Jo Ann briefly ran a former Thrifty in Reno from about 1995-1998 and they painted the walls and brought in their own shelving (store had a racetrack type layout with fabric cutting table in the middle of the store) but kept the old Thrifty floor and walls/lighting, it was like a makeshift store, and they closed it when they got HOF and kept the Reno Fabricland (which is the current Reno Jo Ann). Jo Ann did almost no business there and it was a strange location choice. The shopping center had at the time a very popular "sports bar" with a reputation for great food as well, which took up all of the parking around the store a lot of the time and obviously the type of customer going to Jo Ann is not the type of customer who is jamming into a tiny "sports bar." I always thought the popularity of that bar was what doomed the Thrifty but that exit occurred when they exited Nevada entirely.

[ClownLoach]

From a brand perspective Joann should close since it is a blight on their name and does no real volume. Yet they've kept many of the old House of Fabrics and Cloth World dreadful stores open probably because of the financials I explained above. They really needed to find a savior who would be happy to invest in addressing their needs and consolidating stores but making the new ones better so they could become a regional draw. But that takes a lot of money. Joann does seem to be doing this in SoCal when they can, they closed around 5 stores in Orange, Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda and Fullerton several years ago and replaced with two modern stores in Orange and Fullerton/Brea area.

House of Fabrics was an odd operation. I don't think they were scanning yet when they got bought out by Jo Ann. Jo Ann was already trying to expand out west when they bought House of Fabrics but I'm not sure how far they had gotten. Jo Ann briefly ran a former Thrifty in Reno from about 1995-1998 and they painted the walls and brought in their own shelving (store had a racetrack type layout with fabric cutting table in the middle of the store) but kept the old Thrifty floor and walls/lighting, it was like a makeshift store, and they closed it when they got HOF and kept the Reno Fabricland (which is the current Reno Jo Ann). Jo Ann did almost no business there and it was a strange location choice. The shopping center had at the time a very popular "sports bar" with a reputation for great food as well, which took up all of the parking around the store a lot of the time and obviously the type of customer going to Jo Ann is not the type of customer who is jamming into a tiny "sports bar." I always thought the popularity of that bar was what doomed the Thrifty but that exit occurred when they exited Nevada entirely.

A lot of smarter retailers have lease restrictions that block sports bars, fitness centers, and other parking space suckers from operating as Co-tenants (along with inappropriate businesses like strip clubs and adult stores). I have a sense that Joann never was organized enough to create such consistent standards because it is a mashup of so many brands, and also because they were probably seeking low rent above all else. That leaves them with problems like you describe, all parking absorbed by a sports bar.

[storewanderer]

From a brand perspective Joann should close since it is a blight on their name and does no real volume. Yet they've kept many of the old House of Fabrics and Cloth World dreadful stores open probably because of the financials I explained above. They really needed to find a savior who would be happy to invest in addressing their needs and consolidating stores but making the new ones better so they could become a regional draw. But that takes a lot of money. Joann does seem to be doing this in SoCal when they can, they closed around 5 stores in Orange, Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda and Fullerton several years ago and replaced with two modern stores in Orange and Fullerton/Brea area.

House of Fabrics was an odd operation. I don't think they were scanning yet when they got bought out by Jo Ann. Jo Ann was already trying to expand out west when they bought House of Fabrics but I'm not sure how far they had gotten. Jo Ann briefly ran a former Thrifty in Reno from about 1995-1998 and they painted the walls and brought in their own shelving (store had a racetrack type layout with fabric cutting table in the middle of the store) but kept the old Thrifty floor and walls/lighting, it was like a makeshift store, and they closed it when they got HOF and kept the Reno Fabricland (which is the current Reno Jo Ann). Jo Ann did almost no business there and it was a strange location choice. The shopping center had at the time a very popular "sports bar" with a reputation for great food as well, which took up all of the parking around the store a lot of the time and obviously the type of customer going to Jo Ann is not the type of customer who is jamming into a tiny "sports bar." I always thought the popularity of that bar was what doomed the Thrifty but that exit occurred when they exited Nevada entirely.

A lot of smarter retailers have lease restrictions that block sports bars, fitness centers, and other parking space suckers from operating as Co-tenants (along with inappropriate businesses like strip clubs and adult stores). I have a sense that Joann never was organized enough to create such consistent standards because it is a mashup of so many brands, and also because they were probably seeking low rent above all else. That leaves them with problems like you describe, all parking absorbed by a sports bar.

The sports bar Scruples started innocent in the late 80's. It didn't absorb all the parking at first. It built its business over many years. It had gaming. It added a nice outside patio. They did a lot of advertising/radio broadcasts etc. Eventually the owner opened an "annex" a few spaces down in a slightly different format under a different name Shenanigans by the mid 90's because the original location had more customers than it knew what to do with. I could not believe how many people were packed into that space the few times I got brought in there. Oddly as things went, the original location was sold and It ended out of business. The "annex" was kept by the original owner but eventually sold too but is actually still in business.

It was funny when Thrifty closed their store there because the parking lot was always so full, people thought the store was doing great. But actually the store was completely dead, a total ghost town.